Curse

-Makai- · Jun 01, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Earlier, I was a little appalled by Nicholas's most recent desire. In response, I thought I'd try to gather a little sympathy for our poor amphibious friends. For aesthetic reasons, heket are one of my favorite races in Guild Wars and I wish they could be portrayed in a positive light.

To begin, I think it's important to understand that, unlike many territorial creatures in Guild Wars, heket are sentient. Proof can be found in the Nightfall quest, For Your Ears Only, where the player overhears heket speaking the common language. Also, the use of weapons and tools to craft dwellings (primarly found in Sparkfly Swamp) show that heket are intelligent, sentient creatures.

However, the focus of my argument has little to do with heket found in Nightfall. Considering Varesh hired the heket as mercenaries to combat Vabbi and the Sunspears, they had to be stopped. What I'm concerned about are the EOTN heket, also known as frogmen. Unlike NF heket, frogmen are confined within certain boundaries and their conflicts are strictly defensive.

I'm a little disgusted by the actions of the Shining Blade in Gadd's Encampment, specifically the quest Frogstomp, where the player helps Hayda wipe out an indigenous tribe. Here is Bartholos's reasoning:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholos

"Ah, <Player name>, have I got an opportunity for you. The Shining Blade has its hands full, what with civil war, White Mantle, and crazy Asura. Now we've got an infestation of frogmen. They're a threat to the camp and, frankly, they smell funny."

I find it interesting how Bartholos mentions "infestation" when several heket structures can be seen throughout Sparkfly Swamp, indicating the agari tribe was there before the Blade. Furthermore, he literally adds insult to injury in the reward dialogue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholos

"I'm glad to hear the frogmen have been dealt with. Now, maybe we can focus on matters at hand instead of worrying about croaking in the middle of the night."

In my mind, the Shining Blade is no better than the White Mantle. The Mantle sacrificed Krytans to keep its power while the Blade slaughtered the agari tribe because they got in the way of recovering a bloodstone. I'll even go so far as to say the Blade's invasion of Sparkfly Swamp is similar to the Charr's conquest of Rin (though obviously on a much smaller scale). And let's not forget the Kournans. At least they were "generous" enough to enslave the centaurs instead of just completely wiping them out.

In the end, the big difference lies in manipulation. The Mantle sacrificed Krytans to please the Mursaat, just as the Charr conquered Ascalon to pay tribute to the Titans. In the case of Zhed and his kin, they were enslaved to fuel Varesh's war machine. Unlike these villains, the Blade was not swayed by some supernatural force; its decision to kill the agari was completely conscious.

And thus, as the War in Kryta continues with the bloodstone presumably being used to combat the Mantle, remember those agari who died trying to protect their homes and families from bigoted invaders. The armrests on Salma's throne are caked in amphibian blood.

I have spoken for the heket.

Sidenote: It would be nice if Anet somehow incorporated the poor agari into the current WiK. Seeing how Lindsey is addicted to pop culture references, she could easily turn the Blade into Naboo and the agari into Gungans, giving us another Star Wars reference!

Del · Jun 01, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

It's humanity in general, kill everything beneath you that is even just a mere inconvenience to you. Not shining blade vs frogmen, humanity vs frogmen.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 01, 2010, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Ugh. The Tyrian frogmen are NOT called hekets. Hekets are toads not frogs. The race's name is hylek - shared with the green tribe's name. The hekets are, at best, cousins to the frogmen/hylek. I curse Anet for not making a bloody distinction in the game mechanics which caused people to think they are the same thing (as frogmen also drop Heket Legs while that one NF quest is active, though this is purely a game mechanic and not lore).

And in the Shining Blade's defense, the Agari tribe are hostile. They attack us on sight (unlike the two other groups we encounter underground). I assume they are in fact highly territorial and the SB's expedition south has "insulted" the Agari and the Shining Blade are now fighting in defense. Along with that, as it is with every race in GW, humanity views itself higher than all other races and the hylek are semi-sapient at best (though the hekets are more intelligent). Thus, killing hylek would be like killing grawl or, for a more realistic comparison, killing bees, dolphins, dogs, and other "smart" animals.

dansamy · Jun 01, 2010, 05:44 AM // 05:44

I don't like frogs or toads. Amphibian-stomping is just fine by me.

-Makai- · Jun 01, 2010, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Ugh. The Tyrian frogmen are NOT called hekets. Hekets are toads not frogs. The race's name is hylek - shared with the green tribe's name. The hekets are, at best, cousins to the frogmen/hylek. I curse Anet for not making a bloody distinction in the game mechanics which caused people to think they are the same thing (as frogmen also drop Heket Legs while that one NF quest is active, though this is purely a game mechanic and not lore).

I'll blame the GWWiki for this. On the talk page, there's a discussion about how heket and hylek are the same, hence my apparent confusion. And I seem to recall a specific page for frogmen, which was deleted some time ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And in the Shining Blade's defense, the Agari tribe are hostile. They attack us on sight (unlike the two other groups we encounter underground). I assume they are in fact highly territorial and the SB's expedition south has "insulted" the Agari and the Shining Blade are now fighting in defense. Along with that, as it is with every race in GW, humanity views itself higher than all other races and the hylek are semi-sapient at best (though the hekets are more intelligent). Thus, killing hylek would be like killing grawl or, for a more realistic comparison, killing bees, dolphins, dogs, and other "smart" animals.

I'd say the hylek are a bit more intelligent than grawl, considering they can build structures. However, as we haven't seen any grawl dwellings, both ends would be pure speculation. Regardless, I still don't think the SB's actions are completely justified. If the Frogstomp quest involved defending Gadd's Encampment instead of venturing into agari territory, I'd probably sing a different tune.

Del · Jun 01, 2010, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante_Kelm

Regardless, I still don't think the SB's actions are completely justified. If the Frogstomp quest involved defending Gadd's Encampment instead of venturing into agari territory, I'd probably sing a different tune.

I find the Sb's actions similar to that of european settlers when they jacked the red man for his land.

-Makai- · Jun 01, 2010, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

I find the Sb's actions similar to that of european settlers when they jacked the red man for his land.

I thought of the same comparison, though I didn't want to bring it up. I guess the general understanding of all this is that humans are arrogant and they probably won't change any time soon.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 01, 2010, 07:05 AM // 07:05

In a way, Frogstomp is the Shining Blade acting in defense. Though he made a joke out of it, he still stated that the Agari were killing at night. Which means that instead of sitting around to get attacked again, we went and dealt them a blow as to end the threat. I would say it is a preemptive strike, but it seems like the SB were already attacked, thus it would be a postemptive strike.

Mintha Syl · Jun 01, 2010, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Yes, humans kill exterminate evrything that's different or at least inferior in their conception. At least in this case we talk about defense. What about Arachni's haunt where you help the Asura exterminate million spiders in their ancientt home only because...they want it as a lab for their experiments? Maybe spiders are not as sentient as hylek (or even hekets if you whish) but the point is the same. We always return there.

EwolxNavi · Jun 03, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

The Heket/Hylek are barely a step above monsters. Yes they use tools and band together into tribes and build dwellings, but so do other monsters. Harpies use tools, weapons and have organized nesting grounds. Naga also use implements and build their own dwellings. Istani Skale formed their own religion (worshiping the skale god Moa'vu'Kaal) and a primitive government (in the form of the feudal lord, Jurpa).

These races are similar to other non-humans but I group the races of tyria into four categories. Lost Civilization, Civilization, Tribal Nation and Tribal Primitive. Lost Civilization contains ancient races such as Forgotten, Muursat & Seers, and (most recently) the Dwarves. Civilizations include the cultures of Humans, Norns, Charr and Asura (ignoring Sylvari for now as they have not been born yet). Tribal Nations include the Veldrunner Centaur (and Ventari), the Angchu Tengu and (in isolated cases) the Dredge. Tribal Primitives is everything else that is not strictly a monster, including Harpies, Naga, Grawl, some Skales and the Heket/Hylek.

I base my esteem for a race based on whether or not it has any redeeming members (or otherwise non-hostile in the game) who are willing and capable of reason. I can speak with the Veldrunner, I can speak with the Angchu and I have helped at least a couple of Dredge who have sought my services. The others, however, are universally hostile. Harpies, Naga, Grawl and Skale all attack on sight, and so do the Heket. Reading the manscript excerpt on the Heket's wiki page only further proves that they are primitive savages. Just because it can speak the common tongue and lives in a fancy den doesn't make it worth respecting, or deserving of "human" (need a better/non-exclusive word to describe all the civilized races) rights.

Perhaps the Heket, and these other tribes, will one day rise above their savagery. Who knows, we might end up playing Harpies if/when Elona is included in GW2. But until then I see no reason to waste pity on them. It was the same with humans, who were casually slaughtered by the Forgotten when we too were a primitive race of savages. Once a Heket finally walks/hops up to me and says "Hail and well met adventurer! Might I inquire as to your business on my lands?" then I will extend to it all the niceties and respect that a reasonable person deserves.

Mintha Syl · Jun 03, 2010, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

I have helped at least a couple of Dredge who have sought my services. The others, however, are universally hostile

Remember you once helped a hylek clan against the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

But until then I see no reason to waste pity on them. It was the same with humans, who were casually slaughtered by the Forgotten when we too were a primitive race of savages.

Wow, you're saying if someone doesn't hand a conversation with you he doesn't deserve any respect or at least pity? Nice concept you got, promoved onorary asura.

EwolxNavi · Jun 03, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Wow, you're saying if someone doesn't hand a conversation with you he doesn't deserve any respect or at least pity? Nice concept you got, promoved onorary asura.

No, not at all. I said "willing and capable of reason". The sample sentance was mostly sarcasm. I've never been approached by a Tengu and the first Centaur I ever met tried to blackmail me. But the fact is that there are members of these races who are capable of being non-hostile, civil and carrying on a conversation. For these reasons I do think twice before slaughtering the hostile ones I come across. I kill a Caromi Brave with more or less the same amount of guilt/consideration that I kill an Am Fah Healer (which isn't much).

But Heket (in my experiences) show no signs of being able to be anything other than savage. How Varesh managed to talk to any of them long enough to hire them as mercenaries I've no idea, but by then she was less than human herself as well.

All I'm saying is, I don't consider the Heket to be people, just highly functioning monsters. I actually prefer regular animals to Heket. At least wild tigers don't attack me without provocation.

As for the Asura comment, thank you! I like to think of myself as not too shabby.

StormX · Jun 04, 2010, 10:33 AM // 10:33

While we're at it, what about the sunspear bounties or the eotn bounties that require you to kill every living thing on the map for stupid/superficial reasons? In real life such actions would be quite horrific.

Heck, the objectives in the game require the main character to engage in lots of dodgy/morally dubious acts, not completing them would mean being denied access to certain game content. It would be nice if the player was allowed to make moral decisions like in other rp games(eg. baldurs gate and the like) but the way GW is structured simply doesnt allow for it.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 05, 2010, 12:22 AM // 00:22

It seems to me that you'll get your wish in GW2, StormX. Also for the "it's a friggin game" - this is the lore forum where people discuss in-game things seriously. It's what we do (kind of like a rp forum for the scholar-types that breaks the 4th wall).

Gmr Leon · Jun 05, 2010, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante_Kelm

just as the Charr conquered Ascalon to pay tribute to the Titans.

You misunderstand, the Charr conquered Ascalon because it was their land to begin with, they were merely reclaiming it from the human intruders. The Titans just gave them the extra edge they needed to loosely unify and shatter the Great Northern Wall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

Reading the manscript excerpt on the Heket's wiki page only further proves that they are primitive savages. Just because it can speak the common tongue and lives in a fancy den doesn't make it worth respecting, or deserving of "human" (need a better/non-exclusive word to describe all the civilized races) rights.

Perhaps the Heket, and these other tribes, will one day rise above their savagery. Who knows, we might end up playing Harpies if/when Elona is included in GW2. But until then I see no reason to waste pity on them. It was the same with humans, who were casually slaughtered by the Forgotten when we too were a primitive race of savages. Once a Heket finally walks/hops up to me and says "Hail and well met adventurer! Might I inquire as to your business on my lands?" then I will extend to it all the niceties and respect that a reasonable person deserves.

You do realize, the Forgotten slaughtered humans only because of human arrogance which led to their first attack on the Forgotten, right? It wasn't casual slaughter, it was self-defense. I doubt the Frogmen hold this same arrogant drive that makes them view the humans as being mindless beasts, it's simply an issue of territorial claims. Besides, the only reason you're getting by with your argument here is due to the fictional nature of it, shifted to reality this would be the same sort of arrogant and bigoted response of one within the superior "race." Your thoughts would permit the genocide of many tribes until they "got it", that is to say that they must be willing to give up their land and peacefully socialize with the other races i.e. integrate or watch their civilization (society) go extinct.

In your defense, you will say it is purely because it is fictional that you say such things, but given that this was your first response to the matter, and no one else linked the two or seemed willing to, I suspect your response speaks more of yourself than you would like to think. We speak more truths of ourselves when we least expect anyone to take us seriously. True, I may be off base with this suggestion, but I don't take the extinguishing of civilizations based on such antiquated ideals, be it real or not, lightly. If the option existed, I'd be amongst the indigenous "savages" trying to push any race expanding into their territory out.

Then again, I would also support an Aborigines Reclamation project in Australia, so...

draxynnic · Jun 06, 2010, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

Naga also use implements and build their own dwellings.

Bad example.

If you read the Factions Manuscripts, the Naga, by your reckoning, would actually be a Lost Civilisation whose remnants blame humanity for the virtual destruction of their race and culture and are hostile as a result. They did have a peaceful culture before the Jade Wind, but circumstances after the Jade Wind made them that much more expansionist, aggressive and territorial to survive.

EwolxNavi · Jun 08, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

You do realize, the Forgotten slaughtered humans only because of human arrogance which led to their first attack on the Forgotten, right? It wasn't casual slaughter, it was self-defense. I doubt the Frogmen hold this same arrogant drive that makes them view the humans as being mindless beasts, it's simply an issue of territorial claims. Besides, the only reason you're getting by with your argument here is due to the fictional nature of it, shifted to reality this would be the same sort of arrogant and bigoted response of one within the superior "race." Your thoughts would permit the genocide of many tribes until they "got it", that is to say that they must be willing to give up their land and peacefully socialize with the other races i.e. integrate or watch their civilization (society) go extinct.

In your defense, you will say it is purely because it is fictional that you say such things, but given that this was your first response to the matter, and no one else linked the two or seemed willing to, I suspect your response speaks more of yourself than you would like to think. We speak more truths of ourselves when we least expect anyone to take us seriously. True, I may be off base with this suggestion, but I don't take the extinguishing of civilizations based on such antiquated ideals, be it real or not, lightly. If the option existed, I'd be amongst the indigenous "savages" trying to push any race expanding into their territory out.

Then again, I would also support an Aborigines Reclamation project in Australia, so...

You presume too much. This being fictional has nothing to do with it. Nor is it about superiority or bigotry. This is about the Heket being incapable of being anything but hostile in the game.

I'm not even taking quests into account. I'm talking about general interaction with the Heket. Try to pass through Heket territory without being attacked. Try to simply mind your own business, get where you're going, and ignore them completely. You're not trying to build on their land, you're not trying to expand into their territory, you're not even trying to steal their resources. You're just trying to get from point A to point B, and the best path happens to be through a wide open field that they happen to be standing in.

Now cross that field without them attacking you. Ignore them, walk around them, just mind your own business and leave them alone. They will attack you. Without any real reason or purpose beyond the fact that you were there to be attacked. Now expand this behavior to their entire species. Every single tribe and clan of them. This isn't arrogance, or bigotry. It's simple logic. It is bound and determined to kill you, so if you want to live you have to kill it.

In the case of the Heket, they are all bound and determined to kill you, without any prior provocation. It stands to reason that you will have to kill them all then, yes? Or at least all the ones that cross your path. It is the fact that they are all like this, that allows me to make the generalization. I even explained my regard for other races. If there is a race where they are not all of the opinion that I must die, then I do not condone their eradication. This is why I respect Tengu, Centaur, and even the Dredge (though the majority of them want me dead in game). Because I can point to at least one that is civil enough to not try to kill me on sight. I can't do this with the Heket, they are universally hostile. Therefore, there is no other recourse but to condone their extermination.

It is for this reason that I would say, until they "get it", I have no problem with killing them all. If even one Heket would simply sit and watch me pass by without trying to kill me, I would gain a great amount of respect for the species. Will I still kill the ones coming after me? Of course, the same as I kill other humans that try to kill me. But it's not about superiority. It's about the fact that the species simply has no redeeming members, and as a whole has pitted itself against us.

So find me a non-hostile Heket, and I will recant. Until then, call me whatever names you want. I'll be out in Sparkfly, stomping some frogs.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 08, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

The game is made for you to have enemies. Just because you cannot be with peace with the Heket doesn't mean they will never allow peace. The AI isn't that advanced. You need to realize where the separation of lore and game mechanics is at. The fact that Hekets are always hostile very well may be a case of game mechanics and not lore.

EwolxNavi · Jun 09, 2010, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Very well, an acceptable point. I will rescind my previous statement in favor of an example of non-hostile Heket in the Guild Wars lore.

But is there any lore that can be produced in their defense? Their entry in the manuscripts even advocates their eradication and cites them as "savage", in favor of "crude concepts" and that due to their hostilities, "exterminating them is a public service".

Is there any other lore to the contrary?

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2010, 01:37 AM // 01:37

One could say the exact same for the charr - in fact, that's more or less how Ascalonians view the charr. You must remember that everything in gw1 is a human's point of view, with a few things being what other races tell us.

If a race is sapient - we which know the heket are - there is a chance of peace. I haven't noticed a single human in Vabbi or Kourna which thought that hekets weren't some sort of plague - does that mean that hekets are in fact a plague? No, not at all. It means that humanity in those areas view them to be such.

In fact, yes, we do see where hekets work with humans. Though not directly, and not with us. You'll find this quest to be quite interesting. It proves that hekets are sapient, that they have allied with humans, and partially of why they always attack us. In one line, no less.

But to spare you of looking through the page:

Quote:

Blood Cowl Heket: "What was that?"
Scout Dehra: "Shhh! Keep it down! We don't want to attract the attention of the heket."
Blood Cowl Heket: "Nevermind. It must have been your stomach grumbling again. Haven't you had enough? I saw you eat two villagers this afternoon!"
Stoneaxe Heket: "Oh, they were skinny with barely any meat on their bones. What I wouldn't give for a fat, delicious bookkeeper. They sit on their rumps reading all day! Bah! Alright, back to business. When can we expect the shipment?"
Blood Cowl Heket: "Word is they will arrive around noon. I suspect we'll be joined by a heavily-loaded troop carrying Denravi axes and enough food so our warriors will fight with full bellies!"
Stoneaxe Heket: "Ah, we are fortunate brother! Without this human warmarshal's help, we would never be able to defeat these hated...and tasty...Vabbians! To her health, and to our victory!"

Blue Tongue Heket: "I wonder if Varesh is sending along her special advisors...."
Beast Sworn Heket: "I hope not. They're nasty things, all purple and shiny. Makes my warts crawl just to look at 'em."
Blue Tongue Heket: "True, and these days there are more of them in the Kournan army than humans, it seems. Good thing they're on our side, eh?"

They have allied with Varesh and the Vabbians are hated (I would also assume they just hate humans in general, Varesh being a special exception since a peace negotiation was able to be made).